The War that was right to fight

[Gabriel]

John,

There are three things missing from this article, the music, the love story (yes, unfortunately we can't have any movie without it anymore. Even Pearl Harbor was 50% love story), and the ending in which the people of Iraq, with tears in their eyes stand in a unanimous ovation for GW. Catherine Zeta Jones may find GW too young compared to Sean Connery, but I am sure she would learn to love him by the end of the movie. Unlike in Zorro, the horse would have to be white, of course. I don't think GW's supporters would like to see him touching anything black.
Now, let me ask you a few stupid questions. Wouldn't it be easier to have requested democracy from Kuwait as a price for its liberation? Or to demand it from the Saudi's as a condition for doing business with the US and Europe? And don’t you find the fact that none of the dictatorships who happen to be friends with the US are mentioned in this article just a little odd? You probably will accuse me of wanting the entire world to be under some kind of sadistic ruler, but it seems to me that it is rather silly to attack a country in order to bring democracy, while happily doing business with most of their undemocratic neighbors.
Fake elections used to scare me, but now thanks to the new and improved world, I need to worry about fake liberations. Isn’t it enough to take the oil? Do you find it necessary to also take the hope?

Gabriel

[Johnmcd]

Gabriel,
Your cynical bitterness is clearly evident and most probably very insulting to the Iraqis that braved suicidal bombers to simply cast a vote. But you carry on novelising a tragedy that was over 30 years in making and ask Condeleeza Rice if GW or his supporters if they think colour is an issue in US politics

Now for your stupid questions and no doubt you won’t appreciate stupid answers in return.

You say, “Wouldn't it be easier to have requested democracy from Kuwait as a price for its liberation?”

To my mind freedom does not have a price, though the Kuwaiti and Saudi government paid the lion’s share of Desert Storm. But to answer your question as best as I can. Democracy will not be an overnight occurrence - not just in Kuwait or Saudi – but across the whole region. Tentative steps are already taking place, not at the behest of the UN or the US or anyone else – but at the behest of people who want it. As the commenter alluded: Middle East democracies now include Palestine, Afghanistan and Iraq. Examples have been set where once thought impossible.

Fake liberations? By this you mean the coalition kicked out Saddam just to get oil and simply tossed in elections to keep the masses happy? This is what you mean – isn’t it!! Seriously, the potential wealth of Iraq is some years away from being realised and it will be up to the Iraqi government how long it takes to get the stuff out of the ground in any profitable quantities in order to rebuild their shattered infrastructure. Hardly likely that they will tolerate anyone denying them from this. However, you will be aware that both France and Russia are still holding Iraq on past debts accumulated under Saddam.

Hope? We took away their hope? Explain this to me please.

Best,
John.

[caton]

John,


You wrote to gabriel:

“Your cynical bitterness is clearly evident”<br>
It is not precisely Gabriel who is “cynical”. Even more, all the invoked motives for the Irak war were absolutely cynical. Still searching for the WMD you KNEW were there? *

“ask Condeleeza Rice if GW or his supporters if they think colour is an issue in US politics”<br>
Would you think that a man who protected several Jews in Germany –particularly from 1933 to 1945- could be antisemitic? Well, Hitler was one of those ‘protectors’. So, your comment seems to refer to the Jewish friend each and every antisemitic has.

“Democracy will not be an overnight occurrence - not just in Kuwait or Saudi – but across the whole region.”<br>
May I ask you why did you begin with a country that HAD TO BE DESTROYED to be ‘helped’ instead of one of those which you already controlled –like Kuwait-?

“Tentative steps are already taking place, not at the behest of the UN or the US or anyone else – but at the behest of people who want it.”<br>
Oh, England has a mandate by the People of Irak! How moving! Oh, yes! People in Irak LOVED TO BE BOMBED! I wonder how do you know from England what the man in the street wants in Iraq. Given the circumstance that Kuwait was not bombed, I must infere you had good intelligence –so to call it- stating that the Kuwaitis don’t want to be liberated (**).
“As the commenter alluded: Middle East democracies now include Palestine, Afghanistan and Iraq.”

Was it not you who mentioned the world ‘cynical’? How could you then been an ally of Pakistan? Why don’t you bomb it to liberate it?


Gabriel has answered you pretty well about your accusations of hating USA. To that, you answer as follows:

“What alternative does Javier offer? Is there some middle way that I have missed? Until I hear such, then an opposite view is assumed, or as I say – “so it seems”
So, if I don’t know an alternative- by the way, you never ask me- then surely I hate the USA. Where’s the logic of that? The real logic is the ‘demonisation’ of he who thinks different. As you cannot reasonable justify your points, you must make a demon of ‘the other’. I cannot help to reflect that I have been accused BOTH of hating and of admiring everything British...

Regarding nuclear weapons –though you never ask me either- I’ve already told you ALL NUCLEAR WEAPONS should be dismantled under international supervission. That means that international inspector should be allowed to verified each and every sensible instalation the world over –including Britain and the USA-

Regarding what your country should do (and USA too), you should simply GO HOME and STAY THERE. Live by your own resourses. Forget about ‘ruling the waves’ Don’t mess in other countries bussiness. If you really want to benefit other peoples, instead of BOMBING THEM (and take charge of their resourses...) organize and pay massive vaccination campaigns, potabilization of water, sanitary instalations, education, hospitals and medical care, donate mosquito nets for tropical poor countries, take out the impossible ‘rights’ on medicines (do you imagine Louis Pasteur stating ‘either pay my intellectual rights or die of rabbies’?). You would find that not only much rewarding –from a moral point of view- but those donations would be infinitely cheaper than your ‘donation’ of democracy by bombing (your problem with that is that it wouldn’t grant you the control of those lands resources... so it is not an alternative)

In other words, DON’T HELP ANYBODY BY BOMBING IT!

You also wrote:
”Both of you fail to mention the changes that have occurred in Afghanistan and in Iraq – only contempt by hindsight views that you both have postulated so often. Let’s have a debate without the rhetoric, let’s reason, and let’s us understand.”<br>
It looks like you have not read my quote to the NGS of Washington, DC:

“In the ravaged countryside where most of the estimated 20 million to 25 million Afgans live, self-appointed warlords rule. A recent human rights report found that gunmen are terrorising the countryside -robbing, detaining, and raping Afghan citizens without penalty - and creating a climate of fear." National Geographic Magazine, november 03.

"Warlords and their militias control most areas outside Kabul, and Afghanistan is once again the world's leading opium producer" National Geographic Magazine, december 04.

Please note the changes....
Best - Javier


(*)And the ‘stupids’ of UN couldn’t find

(**) I cannot help to remember an anecdote of Ernesto ‘Che’ Guevara in Bolivia: after taking a small village, they rallied the people in the central square and he gave a speach, announcing they had took arms to ‘liberate them’. An old woman ask him ‘liberating us? What from?”<br>
PS: Ernie, you seem to confound the clash of armies with the clash of civilizations. When the weakest culture wins the military clash, in the long term it ends adopting the civilization of the conquered. Note that it happened with your Barbarian ancestors (who had not even an alphabet) and the Romans (1): you are now a part of the west. It happened also to the Mogols when they conquered China; when on the contrary he who has the strongest civilizartion wins the military battle, the conquered adopt –in the long term- the ways of the conqueror.
(1) Have a look to the etimology of your language; see my last paragraph: confound - armies - civilizations - culture - military - long - term - adopting -civilization – conquered - note - Barbarian - ancestors – alphabet - Romans – west –etc (ETCETERA).

[Johnmcd]

Javier,
As you read this post please do not dismiss out of hand what I forward:

As I mentioned, the operation to free Iraq from Saddam was right to fight - there was no third way with him. After his fall 300,000 massacred bodies were found in mass graves and still they are being uncovered. You need to ask the Iraqis if they would prefer him back. Take the election and the result as their answer.

I spent 27 years in the Royal Navy and was involved in conflicts that was all to to do with freedom. Let me take you on this journey and hopefully you will understand my own point of view, if not the political point of view.

1982 - Falklands War.
Engaged in the removal of a fascist led regime that invaded the islands to the shame of every decent Argentinean who believed in dialogue rather than guns.

1984 - 87
Engaged in preventing Iraq and Iranian war from strangling the Gulf economies and from this war spreading. UN Led.

1990 - Desert Storm
Engaged in the removal of a brutal despot from Kuwait. Failure to do so would have meant a Saddamist empire stretching right down the Gulf and possibly beyond. UN led.

1992 - With the UN in Cambodia.
Engaged in the field to end years of genocide and misery created by another despot to see the first truly democratic elections taking place in 1993. That country has never looked back since. Btw: I worked with Argentinean, Uruguayan forces during this time.

1994 - 97 Former Yugoslavia
Engaged in UN embargo operations against another despot in this time in Yugoslavia. The sectarian violence of this regime and the genocide, not seen since Hitler’s days still reverberates shamefully in Europe for ever letting it happen in the first place.

1998- Sierra Leone.
Civil war and the collapse of an elected government. Untold thousands murdered by sectarian groups . This was brought to a stop and the previous elected government brought back in with new elections taking place sponsored by the UN. I had the misfortune to witness the uncovering of mass graves and identifying the dead to families.

People do not naturally want war, only the mad and fanatical throughout our human history have used weapons as a first resort. They do so when they think they can get away with it. Saddam was allowed this and he used it in the most sickening manner.

When you criticise the US and the UK you only voice what the free electorate in both countries do. We don’t belong to dictatorships. The strength and will of the people of free people is always expressed. The recent Tsunami in SE Asia is a good example where the free of the world got together and launched the largest civil aid recovery plan in modern history. The first ship on the horizon with help was the US aircraft carrier USS Abraham Lincoln. American pilots cargoing aid throughout the stricken area.

More recently (and to answer your jibe about aid to the developing world) another war started a long time ago This is the war on poverty and disease. The UK, on the G7, chair is leading efforts wipe out third world debt by nil return. That’s not because our government has told us that we should do this - its because we have told our government to do this. The richer states do have a duty to eradicate third world debt and to get medicines on the ground, distributing them freely where needed most and without passing them through quasi-governments that usually sell this free aid to their own people. (I actually seen this happening when I was in Djibouti some time ago)

But, we are in danger of losing our world and any stability that longevity of peace can provide. That has fallen, by default, to the developed world - those countries that enjoy security and wealth. This demands responsibility, not just from here, but right across the planet. The barriers to this is clearly evident. It is greed and power mongering.

Best wishes,
John.

Barbarians. Well that’s us here in N Europe. The ancients Greeks were the first to use this term to describe the way northerners spoke. “Bar bar bar bar..” They thought we were ignorant and uncultured. Anyway, who sets the standard for this today?