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Post by Maquilishuat on Jun 21, 2004 20:48:18 GMT -3
Hello All:
As I have always defended in the old site, my position in this dispute is clear: I suggest that the Islanders promote as soon as possible the start of negotiations between Argentina and UK. Why is it so? The best moment to do it (maybe the best opportunity window is already gone) is now, because the Islanders wishes/desires/interests are being taken into account. So they may suggest lots of issues on a given agreement, they can establish dates, resources, etc.
As time passes their perceived importance tend to decrease, and they will be regarded on their actual significance: the one represented by 2.500 unhabitants in a large area and nothing more. Uk may regard any commercial agreement with Argentina (and the Mercosur) as much more important than now, and the Islanders will be in oblivion. This is coming and the extant status for sure will change, and probably they will remember all Argentinean approaches as a missed opportunity.
Why let the uncertain future govern this issue, instead of solving the problem right now? This "limbo" the Islanders are is expensive and depends on political issues that may disappear forever.
Negotiate now, while they can.
Saludos amigos, Otto
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Post by Evil Kondor on Jun 22, 2004 2:13:31 GMT -3
Hola Otto:
I agree with you. As I said in another forum, Who in Argentina has the authority to drop the claim? No one! The so-called “Dropping the Claim” has to come through an agreement or treaty between the UK and Argentina. This treaty has to be fully ratified by the Argentine National Congress, both houses, and given the nature of the treaty a national referendum would follow.
Great Britain is refusing to negotiate, in the first place. Therefore, how is anyone going to reach a treaty?
Many people observe that the Falklands-Malvinas issue has gone under the radar screen in Argentina. Therefore, Argentines are no longer interested in the Falklands. That might be so until the debate over a treaty starts with speeches pro and con! Who in his/her right mind will ever defend dropping the claim, in Argentina, unless they are suicidal politically or otherwise? I even pity the poor fool that had to take my proposed compromise back to Argentina, which was a very hard sell, to say the least.
I always said that the public opinion in Argentina is very important. The answer was: “this has nothing to do with the public opinion in Argentina; it has to do with self-determination blah, blah, blah.”
What are the Islanders doing? It is beyond my comprehension: The Argentine Flag cannot fly over the cemetery, no blue and white colors in the cemetery, no Argentine Airline…They are not really ingratiating themselves with the Argentine public. It is not that they are not gaining brownie points; they are earning negative points. It is the Argentine public who ultimately has to approve any treaty or the dispute will continue forever!
The Islanders are trying to put pressure for Argentina to drop its claim, which brings me to the first point. Who has the authority to drop the claim? Where is the “pressure” directed at? At the public in general? What pressure? Not being able to travel to the Islands? I do not think that the Argentines could care less!
What the Islanders are doing is basically a public relations nightmare for their side.
Best regards,
Evil Kondor
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Post by Gabriel on Jun 22, 2004 15:35:48 GMT -3
Hola Hektor & Otto:
Ernie and John had a very interesting discussion on this issue a while ago. I enjoyed John’s arguments, however, in my opinion Ernie was right. Let’s call things what they are. We all know that it would be more profitable for Aerolineas to have a direct flight to Barranquilla than one to Stanley. The Stanley flight would be used for political purposes and this is the only reason we want it. Many times comparisons were made between European war cemeteries and the Argentine one in Malvinas. The main difference is the European wars are over. The Malvinas war is not. Technically, we are at war with Britain. We can sugar coated by writing in the Constitution our intent to recover our territory peacefully, but the dispute still exists. The islanders are not doing anything we would not do if we were in their shoes. How can we say they don’t exist and simultaneously act offended because of their actions? What kind of weird logic are we applying here? Your argument about the political suicide for whoever “drops the claim” also works on the other side. What island’s elected official would build a monument for their enemy and fly their flag? We have a bizarre situation here, because we are trying to have normal relations with Britain, in spite of our territorial claim. This makes no sense. I explained this before. Either we have a dispute or we don’t. We can’t have it both ways.
Saludos,
Gabriel
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Post by Sakura26 on Jun 22, 2004 15:52:13 GMT -3
Hello All
.....And here we go again. I can't imagine how many times this has been discussed before, but it seems we can't find a happy solution for both parts:
What are the options proposed so far?:
1) The British Favorite: Argentina must drop the claim. 2) The Argentine Favorite: The UK must return the islands to Argentina 3) Share sovereignty 4) Divide the Islands: One island for each country
Unfortunately we're getting nowhere with these options (and all those I'm surely forgetting ). Because Argentina is not going to drop the claim, the UK is not going to betray the Falklanders' wishes and the Falklanders dont want to lose their territory.
Now I wonder if there really is a solution to this conflict and we can someday forget this insane rivalry and share the planet in peace.
And by peace, I'm not talking about "war" I'm talking about being able to visit the islands and not being discriminated for my nationality.
But it has to be done step by step I guess, we can't work on friendship and understanding while the conflict still exists.
What do you think?
Regards Noelia
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Post by Maquilishuat on Jun 22, 2004 19:54:05 GMT -3
Hola Noelia:
That is precisely the point, we are going nowhere. This said, we are just opening a wide door for someone in the future to adopt any solution he might have on mind. The interested people are just doing that, gambling with the future.
Everibody knows how politicians act; most of the time they just think on the next election. Then the dangerous mixture of a bad politician and opportunity may give us another war.
Is it possible? Of course it is (I know we are in a free forum, but as I am vaccinated from the old, let me repeat that I am a pacifist and I wish no war).
But nasty things happens, we may see them everyday in the newspapers. Also, there is nothing that precludes the difference of might to disappear between Argentina and UK. Time will pass and most of the immediate Argentineans problems will be solved. Then the above mentioned mixture is more likely to happen.
The time is now to negotiate a solution.
Saludos amigos, Otto
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Post by Maquilishuat on Jun 22, 2004 20:11:15 GMT -3
Hola Hektor & Otto: Ernie and John had a very interesting discussion on this issue a while ago. I enjoyed John’s arguments, however, in my opinion Ernie was right. Let’s call things what they are. We all know that it would be more profitable for Aerolineas to have a direct flight to Barranquilla than one to Stanley. The Stanley flight would be used for political purposes and this is the only reason we want it. Many times comparisons were made between European war cemeteries and the Argentine one in Malvinas. The main difference is the European wars are over. The Malvinas war is not. Technically, we are at war with Britain. We can sugar coated by writing in the Constitution our intent to recover our territory peacefully, but the dispute still exists. The islanders are not doing anything we would not do if we were in their shoes. How can we say they don’t exist and simultaneously act offended because of their actions? What kind of weird logic are we applying here? Your argument about the political suicide for whoever “drops the claim” also works on the other side. What island’s elected official would build a monument for their enemy and fly their flag? We have a bizarre situation here, because we are trying to have normal relations with Britain, in spite of our territorial claim. This makes no sense. I explained this before. Either we have a dispute or we don’t. We can’t have it both ways. Saludos, Gabriel
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Pólux
New Member
Posts: 13
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Post by Pólux on Jun 22, 2004 23:07:36 GMT -3
I have posted a lot in the other forum but not lately. Since then my mind has changed a bit. I think we Argentinians need a break from taking this claim so dogmatically and start discussing critically why (or whether) it is so vital for us. In a situation as complex as this, the notion of fairness gets blurred. I'm not saying it's a wrong claim, but I wish it wasn't held this way: by the power of the will of millions, who were just taught that way, but don't know why or what for. I acknowledge there's power in that. But it's built on sheer emotion and patriotism. It's OK that we're gathered here willing to exchange opinions and arguments, but there are millions out there who will skip any rational approach and fully support the claim. Because of their number, they are who fatally determine which is Argentina's position (I guess nothing less than full sovereignty). This may lead to a deadlock nobody wants, and unfortunate episodes like 1982's 'adventure'. Again, I'm not saying the claim is wrong or that the islands are not worth recovering. That is something that must be assessed, not simply assumed one way or another. I don't think the current generations are ready for this. Perhaps future ones, provided a more pragmatic and critical view is offered to them. Right now I am NOT convinced that keeping the claim no-matter-what is the best possible scenario for us. It has already caused us tragedy once. Perhaps it IS the best, I don't know, but I need to be shown. We deserve a serious discussion on the worthiness of it all, the pros and cons of every option. This world sees too many crimes made in the name of justice. I don't want us to be part of that again. Back to the topic of this thread, 'negotiations': fortunately Argentina is willing to negotiate (every party involved should be), and that means to be ready for concessions. Everyone must be ready for concessions. But remember that the last time the subject was brought up to the public, Argentines even rejected the elemental concession of dropping the whimsical name 'Puerto Argentino' for Stanley (and other names). If we cannot concede THAT, I hardly see us conceding anything. So that's not promising, I think. As I see it, the way things are, emotions get in the way more than desired and make progress difficult. And of course nobody wants to commit political suicide.
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Post by Evil Kondor on Jun 23, 2004 5:23:26 GMT -3
[shadow=red,left,300] Pólux! [/shadow] Welcome back! It is good to see you again. You always made very good and sensible contributions before. Keep up the good work. This does not mean that I agree with your conclusions, but… We sincerely hope that we make this board a more enjoyable place for friends to meet and get to know each other better. Our board will only be as good as our members make it. Best regards, Evil Kondor
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Post by The MCO Bhoy on Jun 24, 2004 10:57:49 GMT -3
Take it from me, there will be NO NEGOTATIONS, either now, or even in the distant future, and that is the wish of every Falkland Islander.
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Post by jessefoxlet on Jun 24, 2004 11:11:45 GMT -3
You seem pretty sure of yourself, MCO Bhoy.
Are you in the Diplomatic Corps ?
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Post by The MCO Bhoy on Jun 24, 2004 11:45:00 GMT -3
You seem pretty sure of yourself, MCO Bhoy. Are you in the Diplomatic Corps ? Naw, ah tried that diplomacy crap back in 1982, am part o' the newly formed F.I. Seals!
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Post by FOYABASSA on Jun 24, 2004 11:45:19 GMT -3
There is nothing to negotiate. The people of the FI wish to remain British & live in a British Soverign Territiory. As long as that is there wish, the status quo will remain. That is of course until some tin-pot military government again comes to power in Argentina, finds itself in trouble, and tries another military campaign in order to try & unite the Argentinian people.
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Post by FOYABASSA on Jun 24, 2004 11:48:44 GMT -3
Naw, ah tried that diplomacy crap back in 1982, am part o' the newly formed F.I. Seals! Is that no roon the back o the Globe Tavern, Mr MCO Rhory?
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Post by ROMFT on Jun 24, 2004 11:51:05 GMT -3
I thought it was just around the corner from The Upland, a wee Drag on the main road
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Post by FOYABASSA on Jun 24, 2004 12:06:11 GMT -3
I thought it was just around the corner from The Upland, a wee Drag on the main road From pictures I have seen I thought it was the one on a Sandy beech ;D
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