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Post by Johnmcd on Oct 15, 2004 8:59:58 GMT -3
Noelia, Let freedom ring. The people of Afghanistan and Iraq speak for themselves.
This is a good picture of how will feel here in the UK and probably one of the best articles I've on human attitude on the war against terrorism
From the London Times Thursday 14/10
October 14, 2004
The new front in the War on Terror must be against the cynics of the Left GERARD BAKER
YOU COULD almost hear the whoops of delight from around the world when Afghanistan’s election was thrown into doubt by a little dollop of less than indelible ink at the weekend. They must have been hugging themselves in the salons of Brussels and Paris, punching the air in the editorial offices of Shepherds Bush and Gray’s Inn Road, giving each other high fives in the quadrangles of Berkeley and Harvard. It was after all, the best possible outcome for the Bush and Blair-haters, eager to expose the folly of the War on Terror. Even the most cynical critic could not quite wish publicly for the country’s first post-Taleban elections to be ruined by the sort of mass murder that had been widely predicted across the country before Saturday. It is never nice to have to prove your point in piles of bloodied torsos and blackened limbs. But a bit of old-fashioned voter fraud on the grand scale (with delicious opportunities for sneering comparisons with hanging chads and other arcana of George W. Bush’s “fraudulent” election) would do just fine. Yunus Qanooni, whoever you are, you are a hero. You will be fêted for ever by Channel 4 News and liberal democrats everywhere as the Man Who Exposed the Fraud of this US-concocted charade and the Man Who Exploded the Neocon Myth that democracy is within reach of everyone. So when Mr Qanooni and the other presidential candidates dropped their objections a couple of days later the sullen gloom in those quarters was equally palpable. It turns out that the election was free and fair after all. All that stuff about the Taleban really being in control of the country while the American puppet Government ran a couple of square miles of Kabul may need revisiting. Better still, it seems that, while ten million voters in Afghanistan clearly did have the chance to commit fraud, thanks to the ink fiasco, they did not. They so cherished their solemn moment of citizenhood that they were not going to spoil it by resorting to the sort of balloting procedures known and loved by trade unions everywhere. The naysayers quickly recovered. It won’t really work, they said. Voting was the easy part. They will never be able to form a functioning democratic government. And even if it does work in Afghanistan, it won’t work in Iraq, so don’t get any foolish ideas; the whole Iraq project was and still is a naive, dishonest, arrogant exercise in neocolonialism, hubris and cupidity. This is, sadly, where we are in political discourse in the West these days. In the so-called civilised democracies of Europe and America, large numbers of people are rooting for the failure of efforts to help the benighted nations of the Middle East towards rule by someone other than despot and religious fanatic. To prove their facile point that democracy cannot be imposed by force (tell that to George Washington, by the way), large numbers of liberal Democrats in the US, Liberal Democrats and Labour supporters in Britain and virtually the entire political establishment of old Europe are invested in a quick collapse of the democratic ideal. To be fair, it is not just the Left. Tories in Britain who are anti-Bush and anti-America and palaeoconservatives in the US join in the chorus. Kenneth Bigley’s murder last week was another case in point. In considering the causes and implications of this atrocity, the Bush and Blair-haters were careful to make the usual obeisances to good taste by condemning the murder (though a few news organisations insisted on calling it an execution). But they quickly pivoted to the real villains of the story — the British and American governments, without whose illegal war this would never have happened, it was said. And the inhuman and indefensible slaughter of this good man became simply another indictment in the Bill of impeachment against the two leaders. How do we deal with this cynicism? If it is any consolation, we have been here before. A few weeks ago, I had the privilege of attending a dinner here in Washington to honour a visiting academic from Europe. The conversation turned to the activities of those in the West who during the Cold War opposed their governments’ firm stance against Moscow — not just the out-and-out Stalinists, but the misguided dupes who backed unilateral nuclear disarmament. Remember when unilateral was not a dirty word? An ambassador from an East European country looked back with growing apoplexy. If you could only have known, he said, what it was like for those of us living under the Soviet heel to hear those sensitive people in the West attacking their own governments for taking too tough a line with the Russians. This is without doubt the most insidious battle that now has to be fought in the war against terrorism. Not the one against the terrorists themselves, the Baathists, the jihadis, the Taleban and the Wahhabis. Nor even the one against the corrupt and repressive obscenities of governments in Saudi Arabia, Egypt or elsewhere. It is the fight here at home — against the constant insipid blathering of those for whom nothing their nation does can ever be deemed just, unless it is ratified by the freedom-loving members of the United Nations. There is, in the end, no middle ground in this fight. You cannot claim that Tony Blair killed Mr Bigley and then say that you are on the side of the Iraqi people against the true murderers. You cannot fold your arms and wait for the Taleban to ratify your cynicism about democratic progress and still claim to be a defender of civilised rule. You have to ask yourself whether you want to line up with the Hamid Karzais, the Iyad Allawis and the millions of ordinary citizens of the Middle East who have been so abused by the combined assault of fanatical fundamentalism and depraved despotism.Or do you take another side in this fight?
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Post by Gabriel on Oct 15, 2004 10:34:23 GMT -3
Hi John,
The problem with the "democracy" in Afghanistan is that it is temporary. It will not survive one day after the US pulls out, which it will do sooner or later. Same with Irak. Democracy is not a paint job, it is a way of life. You can't go around painting stripes on camels and calling them sport cars.
Regards,
Gabriel
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Post by Johnmcd on Oct 15, 2004 11:41:15 GMT -3
Gabriel, Your comments are quite depressing and just a tadge racist - you believing that those now free do not cherish that freedom, which you seem to indicate needs some sort of cultural qualification.
Best wishes, John.
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Post by Sakura26 on Oct 15, 2004 14:16:47 GMT -3
Hello John
Actually, I agree with Gabriel. It's not racism, it's about the way they chose to live. Nations in which women are degraded, and they do NOTHING to go against their system....(and not only them, if their husbands, brothers, sons love them, why not join them against the government that degrades them?) It's because they BELIEVE (I think it's religious...) they are less.. By setting a democractic president, you're not going to change their minds. It has to start somewhere else, but I'm not sure where... While the soviet union was communist was a great powerful country. Democracy brought poverty and hunger. So PLEASE understand that democracy doesnt work for everybody!! It's a dream come true, yes, that people can choose their presidents and have a voice, but it works in CERTAIN societies, and societies are not all alike. It's a responsability to study the people BEFORE making changes into their systems. After the troops leave Irak, the people will be frightened, confused and humiliated. It didnt help at all.
Noelia
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Post by Maquilishuat on Oct 15, 2004 17:55:19 GMT -3
Hello Gabriel,
No. There is no democracy movement whatsoever. Anyone may remember the attempt in Venezuela orchestrated against a democratic elected president.
What we see is just a fight for oil.
I feel sorrow for those who think that anyone is pursuing democracy or freedom, they should open their eyes and just look around.
Saludos, Maquilishuat
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Post by Gabriel on Oct 15, 2004 18:11:50 GMT -3
Hi John,
I am a Jew who was born and raised in a Catholic country, and live in the USA as a Hispanic (and still a Jew). I have been a second class citizen all my life, and will remain a minority no matter where I go. I need to be lectured about racism as much as a fish needs to be lectured about water. I do agree about my comments being depressing, but that's reality, certainly not my wish.
Noelia, thanks for your words. You are absolutely right. Many western "democracies" did not allow women to vote for most of their existence, in addition to practicing slavery. And if democracy is what the West has in mind for the Middle East, why wasn't Kuwait forced to practice it as a condition for it's liberation? Why isn't democracy demanded from Saudi Arabia?
Gabriel
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Post by Johnmcd on Oct 15, 2004 20:47:00 GMT -3
Gabriel, Thanks for your brief personal testimony.
Must I take that you cannot be a Jew and practice your belief in the USA no matter what your background race is? No lecture from me, just one of the human condition and not one determined by the plots - no Bible, no Koran, no God perceived plan. Just us, human beings.
Who knows what new Constantine’s shall dictate who you must pray to in times to come?
There is nothing ‘Godly’ ordained about freedom - that I know of. It is a concept that we secretly refer to, always wish for but seldom achieve - even in democracy. But you say ’not’ Not possible for your fellows in Iraq or Afghanistan, because they cannot out grow their past ? ‘Not’ is a fatal word. This word is inserted in all our creeds as we kneel in obedience to the God we pray for.
Freedom is a terrestrial goal and will always be crude and undefined with no essence of ‘Godly’ greatness - just a simplicity to be free in one’s lifetime and for us ‘sinners’ to be able to pass this on to our children- before another, less inspired, cuts your head off.
Best wishes, John.
Ps: We paint in bright colours!
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Post by Gabriel on Oct 16, 2004 8:38:49 GMT -3
John,
Nobody in this forum said that the people of Afghanistan don't deserve freedom. They certainly do, but not our temporary imposed Coca-Cola style. Poor people generally do not have a good life, buy they learn how to live the one they get. Throwing money at them for a while and quickly desapearing is extremely cruel. I have not read any response to my comments about the ambivalence in dealing with China vs. Iraq. Why is it that the defenders of Disneyland remain silent when such important questions are rised? Yes, the colors are still bright, but many of us are starting to distrust the painters. There is no such thing as a free paint job.
Regards,
Gabriel
PS:Did you have the chance to watch Farenheit 911?
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Post by Johnmcd on Oct 16, 2004 16:10:27 GMT -3
Gabriel,
“Nobody in this forum said that the people of Afghanistan don't deserve freedom”<br> All I have seen so far indicates that all want their new democracy to fail - just to prove that you were ‘right’ all along. This has not been the case at all - and neither likely to be with Iraq. You see, its not the US or the UK that is imposing their will - it’s the people who live there under their own governments. Where you see new imperialism - I see freedoms, long sought after, but never possible to now.
What response do wish for as regards China? Are you suggesting that we invade China and impose regime change, or forcibly take back Tibet and place the Dali Lama as head of state?
You go on distrusting, that’s your own affair and if Fahrenheit 911 helps you to see a truth or two - then enjoy!
I have seen it when it came earlier in the year. I was disappointed by the lack of fact and deeply cynical approach. I thought it would as objective as Bowling for Columbine - but not so.
Best wishes, John.
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Post by Sakura26 on Oct 16, 2004 17:22:24 GMT -3
Hello John
You posted:
No, we dont want it to fail, in fact, latinamericans were against the war from the very beginning, we dont want that people to suffer more. We dont want it to fail, we see it WILL fail, because the job was done incorrectly. It's not like going, killing everybody, destroying the statue, the city and place a new president, and PRESTO! democracy delivered.... If it was that easy, the world would be a perfect place full of butterflies.... These people, have a very complicated way of life, wich (unlike western cultures) seems to be STRONGLY connected with their religion. Messing with their religion is an attack to human rights, no matter how much we dont like that religion. The US and Britain, should have worked differently. Not fighting THEIR war for them, like you did, but teaching them how to fight. And I dont mean teaching them how to use weapons and violence, but showing them how we live here in the west. If you could convince them, this is the perfect way of life, then the change would had come by itself, no need of any war. If you couldnt convince them, then, you should have respected them and let them live the way they want. IMPOSING your beliefs of democracy in Irak, and especialy with violence, was a strong kick in human rights's back. About Michael Moore, I did see his movie. I believe he's very disappointed with his government, and he wanted people to realize the shiny colors they are painting with, derivate from other human being's blood. But he's also doing bussiness, and in certain ways, taking profit of the anger of the world against the US, so I wont fall for this trick. I took from the movie what I thought it was worth it, and what seemed to be bussiness, I skipped it. I wonder if anyone in this forum have seen a TV show, broadcasted in the UK named "What the world thinks of USA"...It was broadcasted by BBC, and I watched it on the internet. Almost the whole planet Earth was against the war. So John, it's not that we see imperialism where you see freedom...The whole planet can't be wrong, it's too selfish to think you are right and the rest of the solar system is wrong...
Best Wishes Noelia
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Post by Johnmcd on Oct 17, 2004 12:38:41 GMT -3
“So John, it's not that we see imperialism where you see freedom...The whole planet can't be wrong, it's too selfish to think you are right and the rest of the solar system is wrong…”
Noelia, I don’t think that I am right. Let’s get that clear! I said, that the Afghans and the Iraqi’s think it was right. In the case of the Iraqi people they are, to my understanding, bitterly disappointed with the UN and indeed the US that they never made plans for the aftermath of Saddam. I agree with them and I also agree that now is better late than never as they go forward to their first democratic elections.
I may say, that I remain gutted by the attitude of the UN. If you see the wide picture and not just with your anti-US blinkers on then you will begin to understand why the US and coalition forces acted when they did.
Failure is not an option now.
Best wishes, John.
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Post by Sakura26 on Oct 17, 2004 14:13:52 GMT -3
Hello John
We will have to let time pass and see what happens to know who was right. But taking the example of Russia (Soviet Union) that after democracy, got divided, poor and undevelopped, I just can imagine the sad future that is waiting for Irak.
As I said before, democracy works for those who believe in certain items. The most important is the equality of people "we are all human beings and have the same rights"..... They dont believe that, John.. Look at their women! Men think women are less, and WORSE, [glow=red,2,300]women themselves think their are less!![/glow] I've never heard of any good attempt from them to fight for her rights... So what will happen when, let's imagine, the "Bush" and "Kerry" of Irak are debating, and, the iraki "Kerry" wins because he got the vote of the women? Will the iraki "Bush" consider that legal? It's a warrrrrr that's going to start there!
Because FIRST you have to change their minds, teach women how we live here in the west and encourage them to live the same way. Teach men that women are not pets, and they work as hard as them to support the family...
But after all that effort, the risk still exists that they dont want to listen, and want to remain that way..And John, if you respect human rights, you will leave them, without imposing your point of view.
Yes, I am anti-US now. But I wasnt that way a couple of years ago. I used to admire the States very much, and loved it as a country, politically and socially. But I was strongly disappointed about the way they handled Irak. Not only with the government, but with the people that seem to support this insanity. Of course nobody cares that Noelia in SouthAmerica is disappointed with the allmighty United States, but it is really sad that such a nice, wonderful country had become the evil, feared example of new imperialism.
Too sad indeed. Regards, Noelia
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Post by Gabriel on Oct 17, 2004 14:42:44 GMT -3
Hi John,
Noelia did a superb job in answering many points, so I will not be redundant. What do I want to do about China? Very simple. I want the rules applied to Iraq to be applied to China, and everyone else for that matter. Or an apology and a letter of resignation from Bush. Not to mention reparations for Iraq. You would demand at least that much if the same was done to your country. If not being democratic deserves what Iraq got, then let's apply the same rule globally. The first rule under a democratic society is that all men are created equal. Shouldn't this apply to countries as well? Why are speeding tickets issued to only certain types of cars? Isn't speeding illegal for everyone? And yes, doesn't Tibet deserve at least the same self determination you defend when you refer to Malvinas? If not, please explain the difference.
Regards,
Gabriel
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Post by Gabriel on Oct 17, 2004 14:44:09 GMT -3
Hola Otto,
My apologies dear friend. I just realized I did not answer your post. You are absolutely right about Venezuela. We talked about this before.
Un abrazo,
Gabriel
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Post by Johnmcd on Oct 18, 2004 9:44:26 GMT -3
Gabriel and Noelia, Thanks for your replies.
I agree with Noelia that woman’s rights in the Muslim world are indeed ignored not unless they live in a secular society.
I remember listening to a group academic Saudi women who said that change was needed but that change will be dictated by them and not by ‘foreign action groups’ who have little or no idea of their situation or willingness to change. Ultimately, they said, “If we change, it will be for us and not for anyone else”
It is also little known that woman (and men) in Iran, especially among the young, want change now. They realise that they had a contemporary life in Iran before the advent of Ayatollah Khomeini and his successive Mula’s The young in Iran are looking closely at what is happening across the border in Iraq. I think there will be demand for greater emancipation in that country before any other Middle Eastern country. The hardliners in Iran know this.
China is a very difficult and different challenge. At the moment the EU is working hard to invest in a Chinese economy that is growing by the staggering rate of 23% each year. Brazil also is heavily investing in China. China is trying to show the world another side of their communist society, where all can work with them but not against them. But one can only wonder what the ordinary Chinese person will think of the outside world as they ‘hook up’ their digital TV’s, hear digital radio and use the world largest concentration of broadband fitted computers. Perhaps change will occur from within.
The apocalyptic scenario would be if the Chinese ‘economic miracle’ implodes, then you might just see desperate Chinese expansion into the Middle East and elsewhere with possible major confrontation with India and annexation of Taiwan.
Sorry Gabriel, but I wished I lived in your world where dichotomy was non existent. The Falklands is no Tibet. When was Tibet a British Overseas Territory?
Best wishes, John.
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